How does Germany get this advance technology to begin with? Also as was talked in the papal appointments, do other sets of people from the future give technology to the Germans?
Having active radar downtime missiles makes complete sense, it'd be weirder if they weren't working on it in some manner. Likewise, the reusing of designations (I must ask why the Crusader got a USAAF designation, it seems like it would have been quite useful on the smaller downtime carriers). But, did you get the AIM-47 Super Falcon designation for the ARH missile from Wikipedia? Because Wikipedia (was) incorrect in its classification of the missile as such, the change appears to have been driven entirely by one person's vague intuition in 2008, presumably because they thought there was no way a SARH seeker could get that range... even if the source cited in the same paragraph directly contradicted them.
Oh I think AIM-47 isn't actually that related to the IRL AIM-47. It's probably closer to a fusion of AAM-N-10, AIM-120, and AIM-54 cus i doubt much TDP for the AIM-47 would be available on hard copies of 2042 DTIC. Though you definitely have a lot of old TDPs being used to teach machine learning programs to assist with forward fabrication etc. Most of the retromodernized equipment will sorta look like OTL stuff but have different guts because you have a x-years of institutional knowledge to add to them.
Both the USN and the USAAF operate the Crusader, so its both F8U and F-98!
The procurement of retromod stuff is really interesting because you have the weight of the Certs trying to provide guidance about systems that they mostly have never interacted with but Gennie chain of command are the ones making the final decisions and that also has to interact with defense contractors and the competition for contracts (and the capacity of those contractors to meet the orders asked of them) and that isn't even getting in sustainment, training, or the looming issue of temporal IP
Ah that makes sense. I was wondering how they were recreating these systems, it's hard enough to find anything vaguely approaching complete information now, never mind with the limited databases they're left with.
Speaking of designations, I appreciate you keeping around both the pre-1963 aircraft systems, they hold a special place in my heart. One of my hobbies is redesigning current systems back into the old systems.
I think the fleet gets lucky because old stuff is good to teach future CAD ML algorithims what *not* to do and such, but a lot of the kit is like an F-86 on the outside but a whole lot different when you get into the wiring. Retromod in general opens a lot of doors because you have a solid family of powerplants (improved J52/57/75 for commonality) and avoid the major bane of 50s air development with under-powered shitty engines. This does lead to some up interesting decisions — the Marines will decide to adopt a F7U with a single J57 and fly-by-wire control system as a light attacker much to the chagrin of the Certs.
There are also other TDPs in the mix both like stuff that is supposed to be produce (the entire korean defense catalog gets left behind on the Reagan Seabase) cus they are NATO/OSATO spec and you also have more exotic things in the feeder TDPs (soviet stuff, etc which is mostly from the Koreans, Germans—or stole/bought from post-Putin Russia).
I have a crazy person spreadsheet where i can keep track of all the aircraft designation across the USAAF and USN and then the eventual bi/tri-service system. I can imagine the Certs get very annoyed by the lack of jointness but when they try to get the army and navy on side they realize it's probably not worth the trouble.
2) I have SO MANY QUESTIONS about these seemingly hastily-designed part-1940s/part-2040s aircraft and weapons.
3) what is this all-female squadron like both for the Certs and the 1940s servicewomen?? there have got to be a lot of Feelings between the Certs being like "wtf is this shit??" and the '40s women going "WE TOLD YOU WE COULD DO IT"
4) the discussions on culture differences in the war rooms with FDR must have been *interesting*, from race to gender to... well, damn near everything.
5) "AIM-7D Sparrow, AIM-9F Sidewinder" -- is the idea here that these are "new" munitions built in the 40s with half-upgraded technology?
6) sorry, is there a "new" (built in the 40s, obvs) B-52 capable of supersonic speeds?
7) "It was akin to building an F-111 ‘Vark out of F-35 and NGAD parts to get an A-6 Intruder." - lol.
8) "Plus, killing Nazis made it easier for them to punch back home." - seems to imply a Nazi problem in the US in the 40s? i.e. one worse than the Bund?
1) Cert is nicknamed derived from Certain Critical Forces (CERFOR), the euphemistic formal name for the future fleet (CTF, Composite Testing Force)
2) oh there is so much to be said !
3) the 666th FG is something pushed by the CTF as a proof of concept and trained by uptime pilots. Yeah it's a huge departure/upgrade from the WASPs and mostly driven because the need for pilots explodes, even beyond OTL WW2 levels
4) you have no idea how much a mess the first 6th months post-Departure were lol, i plan to cover that again in another vignette soon™
5) the Certs are able to get a bi-service missile designation system to prevent the cursed pre-1963 systems, they are downtime produced sidewinders redesigned to use more modern, but less advanced technology with frankensoftware (thinking using stuff like 2040s raspberry pi instead of trying to recreate equivalent of bleeding edge 1970s solid state tech that no one has any experience working with)
6) nope, the Nazis *think* those are B-52s because of EW spoofing, but they are actually ALCMs—Hound Dogs, Maces, and Matadors (though Matador and Mace are basically both like Mace).
7) The Hotel Hornet is a personal favorite cursed creation
8) not quite, that just meant that shooting through the Luftwaffe aircraft was the fastest way to return to the UK—though things on the home front do get spicy for varying reasons through out the post-Departure. Got everything from constitutional crises to terrorism
Good story! Loved the detail and like the lore stuff. I gotta ask, what do the naval forces of the world look like. Like in post shift dv because I would imagine ciws and asms would change warfare a lot.
naval inventory is a crap shoot. Vibe is basically Charles F. Adams class with VLS versus like Akizuki class with one armed bandits. I honestly need to do another rework cus the current roster is a bit old
Ahhh, I was wondering because since it’s obviously a kinda naval focused book. Also do you plan on doing post war lore? Like after the second world war
it advances rapidly but you do have major constraints in money, people, and industrial capacity—even if they have the know-how. Plus you also have the issue that even with solid understanding procurement cycles take years and years. So there are definitely LO aircraft in service, including during the war (they aren't that great) but it probably takes until the late 60s for like large numbers of LO/VLO aircraft to get into service. Tech development post-war is gonna be uneven and complicated, especially when you stop having the CTF as a laser-focused engine of development
fast thought: iowa retrofit but even more egregiously cursed. "what if we put antiship/landattack ballistic missiles on one arm launchers in the Mark Sevens?"
F-18H is functionally a new aircraft (think the Hornet to Rhino 'upgrade' but even fewer similarities), its closer to a Vigilante/Aardvark hybrid in role/appearance.
the Hs 283 is something along the lines of the FMA IAe 33 Pulqui II.
Vindicator is a J75 powered Vigilante designed for the fleet defense role!
Wondering if the Manhattan project is going to be used against the Germans (just like Oppenheimer wanted) or the Germans are going to kickstart their own atomic program with help from the defectors? This vignette talked about a coup in the reich, could that imply that the defectors are changing the whole "Jewish science" notion around Quantum Mechanics?
How does Germany get this advance technology to begin with? Also as was talked in the papal appointments, do other sets of people from the future give technology to the Germans?
defection! there are some particularly brain melted reactionaries from the future
Excellent entry! You did a great job shifting the perspective back and forth, I especially liked the air strip bombing and Missy dogfighting.
thank you!!
Missy is a fucking baller and I love her.
I’m thinking of creating discussion threads for Double Victory on some forums I know to boost your content. Would that be a problem?
oh that'd be really cool!
Having active radar downtime missiles makes complete sense, it'd be weirder if they weren't working on it in some manner. Likewise, the reusing of designations (I must ask why the Crusader got a USAAF designation, it seems like it would have been quite useful on the smaller downtime carriers). But, did you get the AIM-47 Super Falcon designation for the ARH missile from Wikipedia? Because Wikipedia (was) incorrect in its classification of the missile as such, the change appears to have been driven entirely by one person's vague intuition in 2008, presumably because they thought there was no way a SARH seeker could get that range... even if the source cited in the same paragraph directly contradicted them.
Oh I think AIM-47 isn't actually that related to the IRL AIM-47. It's probably closer to a fusion of AAM-N-10, AIM-120, and AIM-54 cus i doubt much TDP for the AIM-47 would be available on hard copies of 2042 DTIC. Though you definitely have a lot of old TDPs being used to teach machine learning programs to assist with forward fabrication etc. Most of the retromodernized equipment will sorta look like OTL stuff but have different guts because you have a x-years of institutional knowledge to add to them.
Both the USN and the USAAF operate the Crusader, so its both F8U and F-98!
The procurement of retromod stuff is really interesting because you have the weight of the Certs trying to provide guidance about systems that they mostly have never interacted with but Gennie chain of command are the ones making the final decisions and that also has to interact with defense contractors and the competition for contracts (and the capacity of those contractors to meet the orders asked of them) and that isn't even getting in sustainment, training, or the looming issue of temporal IP
Ah that makes sense. I was wondering how they were recreating these systems, it's hard enough to find anything vaguely approaching complete information now, never mind with the limited databases they're left with.
Speaking of designations, I appreciate you keeping around both the pre-1963 aircraft systems, they hold a special place in my heart. One of my hobbies is redesigning current systems back into the old systems.
I think the fleet gets lucky because old stuff is good to teach future CAD ML algorithims what *not* to do and such, but a lot of the kit is like an F-86 on the outside but a whole lot different when you get into the wiring. Retromod in general opens a lot of doors because you have a solid family of powerplants (improved J52/57/75 for commonality) and avoid the major bane of 50s air development with under-powered shitty engines. This does lead to some up interesting decisions — the Marines will decide to adopt a F7U with a single J57 and fly-by-wire control system as a light attacker much to the chagrin of the Certs.
There are also other TDPs in the mix both like stuff that is supposed to be produce (the entire korean defense catalog gets left behind on the Reagan Seabase) cus they are NATO/OSATO spec and you also have more exotic things in the feeder TDPs (soviet stuff, etc which is mostly from the Koreans, Germans—or stole/bought from post-Putin Russia).
I have a crazy person spreadsheet where i can keep track of all the aircraft designation across the USAAF and USN and then the eventual bi/tri-service system. I can imagine the Certs get very annoyed by the lack of jointness but when they try to get the army and navy on side they realize it's probably not worth the trouble.
oh God so many things.
1) remind me what "Cert" is short for again?
2) I have SO MANY QUESTIONS about these seemingly hastily-designed part-1940s/part-2040s aircraft and weapons.
3) what is this all-female squadron like both for the Certs and the 1940s servicewomen?? there have got to be a lot of Feelings between the Certs being like "wtf is this shit??" and the '40s women going "WE TOLD YOU WE COULD DO IT"
4) the discussions on culture differences in the war rooms with FDR must have been *interesting*, from race to gender to... well, damn near everything.
5) "AIM-7D Sparrow, AIM-9F Sidewinder" -- is the idea here that these are "new" munitions built in the 40s with half-upgraded technology?
6) sorry, is there a "new" (built in the 40s, obvs) B-52 capable of supersonic speeds?
7) "It was akin to building an F-111 ‘Vark out of F-35 and NGAD parts to get an A-6 Intruder." - lol.
8) "Plus, killing Nazis made it easier for them to punch back home." - seems to imply a Nazi problem in the US in the 40s? i.e. one worse than the Bund?
1) Cert is nicknamed derived from Certain Critical Forces (CERFOR), the euphemistic formal name for the future fleet (CTF, Composite Testing Force)
2) oh there is so much to be said !
3) the 666th FG is something pushed by the CTF as a proof of concept and trained by uptime pilots. Yeah it's a huge departure/upgrade from the WASPs and mostly driven because the need for pilots explodes, even beyond OTL WW2 levels
4) you have no idea how much a mess the first 6th months post-Departure were lol, i plan to cover that again in another vignette soon™
5) the Certs are able to get a bi-service missile designation system to prevent the cursed pre-1963 systems, they are downtime produced sidewinders redesigned to use more modern, but less advanced technology with frankensoftware (thinking using stuff like 2040s raspberry pi instead of trying to recreate equivalent of bleeding edge 1970s solid state tech that no one has any experience working with)
6) nope, the Nazis *think* those are B-52s because of EW spoofing, but they are actually ALCMs—Hound Dogs, Maces, and Matadors (though Matador and Mace are basically both like Mace).
7) The Hotel Hornet is a personal favorite cursed creation
8) not quite, that just meant that shooting through the Luftwaffe aircraft was the fastest way to return to the UK—though things on the home front do get spicy for varying reasons through out the post-Departure. Got everything from constitutional crises to terrorism
ahhh I remembered "Composite Testing Force," so "Certain Critical Forces" is the 1940s' JCS (or equivalent) name for them.
Yeah! Certain Critical Forces is the "formal" name for the future fleet!
Good story! Loved the detail and like the lore stuff. I gotta ask, what do the naval forces of the world look like. Like in post shift dv because I would imagine ciws and asms would change warfare a lot.
naval inventory is a crap shoot. Vibe is basically Charles F. Adams class with VLS versus like Akizuki class with one armed bandits. I honestly need to do another rework cus the current roster is a bit old
Ahhh, I was wondering because since it’s obviously a kinda naval focused book. Also do you plan on doing post war lore? Like after the second world war
Yep! three-way cold war between a Chiangist-Gaullist Entente, A weakened Soviet Union, and the Atlanticist social semocracies
How does technology advance? Like do we have stealth by the. 50s
it advances rapidly but you do have major constraints in money, people, and industrial capacity—even if they have the know-how. Plus you also have the issue that even with solid understanding procurement cycles take years and years. So there are definitely LO aircraft in service, including during the war (they aren't that great) but it probably takes until the late 60s for like large numbers of LO/VLO aircraft to get into service. Tech development post-war is gonna be uneven and complicated, especially when you stop having the CTF as a laser-focused engine of development
So what happens to the ctf ships. Also how does Germany get awacs.
fast thought: iowa retrofit but even more egregiously cursed. "what if we put antiship/landattack ballistic missiles on one arm launchers in the Mark Sevens?"
This was awesome! Some questions though:
1) Which changes have been made between F/A-18E/F and F/A-18H?
2) What is the Henschel Hs 283 Fulda?
3) What is the NORTH AMERICAN F3J-3 VINDICATOR?
Thanks in advance for the answers.
F-18H is functionally a new aircraft (think the Hornet to Rhino 'upgrade' but even fewer similarities), its closer to a Vigilante/Aardvark hybrid in role/appearance.
the Hs 283 is something along the lines of the FMA IAe 33 Pulqui II.
Vindicator is a J75 powered Vigilante designed for the fleet defense role!
Getting good Ace Combat vibes from all this. Mayhem and Comona would work great here.
"The Certs wore stand-collar service uniforms;" finally an explanation for the highcollar slang!
Yep! the Joint Service Uniform originally derided as "Cheney's Chokers"
"The BUFF’s lone gunner was back alongside his ECM sergeant and controlled the M6A3 rotary cannon in their empennage by radar alone."
What's the scheme for getting the gun around if they get into 20mm range? Just start turning?
Wondering if the Manhattan project is going to be used against the Germans (just like Oppenheimer wanted) or the Germans are going to kickstart their own atomic program with help from the defectors? This vignette talked about a coup in the reich, could that imply that the defectors are changing the whole "Jewish science" notion around Quantum Mechanics?
"He looked and watched two of his command flight’s aircraft tumble out of the sky, torn to shreds by a single massive continuous rod blast."
no atomic -AMs? saaaad...
But this will do!
Operation Bolo, but an alternate WW2 style...
Finally got around to reading this in its entirety, this is some good shit. I love everything about this; it's just so amazingly well done.
How much longer/shorter does WW2 go for in the post-shift timeline though?